Rebalancing of Bererkers - they got nerfed

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    WB Gamer

    Maybe other classes finally have a chance in the online fight pits for once too. This is a boon and a curse. A double edged sword but a good sword.

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    WB Gamer
    But they don’t do less damage to the player right? Still seems like they’re a big deal to me.
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    WB Gamer

    yes i noticed it, personally i think they were fine  no nerf needed

    i didnt noticed the nerfed defenders, they still attack fast, which is good

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    WB Gamer

    not only bererkers are nerfed. all other classes in the pit too. i feel raound about 30% - 50 % less damage - not only special attacks. I put > 1000 orcs through the online pit but the first 20 minutes pit fights after the new patch was a joke. No damage. thx a lot devs.

     

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    WB Gamer

    Agreed, it seems many (all?) classes have been affected negatively.   There's no more character in these fights, in effect they've euniched it.    The Online Assaults are a shell of what they used to be.  Captains go down much faster both by you and other Captains and grunts.  Frankly I'm extremmely disapointed in what they've done - they've reduced the challenge once again and also reduced the uniqueness of many Followers.  Nothing stands out, it's vanllia pudding - boring, unchallenging.  I sure hope they fix this problem and put those health/damage inflicted/health stealing numbers back up again for the July patch - somewhere between where they are at now and what they were before.   As it stands now, I want the old 1.17 version back, this new one is terrible.  

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    WB Gamer
    What did they even do? Is this a bug/glitch that causes this because I don’t think I know what you guys are even talking about. I actually thought I read in the patch notes that damage captain vs captain was increased.
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    WB Gamer
    Totally agreed. There’s not much reason to even pay attention to what our defense or assault teams are made up of now. All orcs seem milquetoast blandness now from what I have seen. Assaults are a joke. They’re making sure that every casual player can defeat every fort without finding anything to whine about... AAA gaming philosophy at its worst

    I’m fascinated with finishing my marauder only fort fort for Lithlad, but after that with the way assaults and defense seem now I’m likely done with that part of the game. The whole joy of building unique assault teams and hard defense points is gone. And considering that that is the only part that makes for replayability, that means I’m prolly done with the game.
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    WB Gamer

    Oh and yes, tried leveling or killing off my guys from theLithlad  invasion in the pit fights and it was a total joke. I had 2 fights end in draws because the captains couldn’t take each other out because they were doing so little damage. And they were long drawn out and painful to watch. 2 fights out of 5 ending in a draw because orcs can’t kill each other and the fight has gone in too long? Yeah they screwed this one up.

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    WB Gamer
    I haven't played as Talion yet since the update but this is something that I was worried about. The berserkers perhaps though are more useless because of the general Captain nerf rather than the nerf of the health effect. Though I feel this was unnecessary, it was only inbalanced in the pit fights.
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    WB Gamer

    Can we maybe be a little more circumspect with our terminology, I can see this is a valid point that people want to make and I'm not going to stop anyone doing it but just maybe can we leave out any future references to castration and the like.

     

    Apart from that carry on.

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    WB Gamer
    I haven't played as talion since the dlc im gonna have to too to see what's up. I'm ok with zerkers getting a rebalance in the online pit fights it was annoying going up against a zerkers with any other class it felt like you had a 1 percent chance of winning. However if fights are ending in draws now I don't like that
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    WB Gamer
    While i cant comment on the challenge for the player aspect, i will say this about the pits. If fights are ending in draws, does that not kinda fit precisely the definition of balanced?
    In respect to the fortress based changes, lets stick to what most of us long time members have done and challenge them constructively on the changes and suggested alternatives.
    And lets not blame stuff on "the casual players" eh? We can do better. It sounds like they just were a bit heavy handed in some alterations and are probably waiting for some player feedback.
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    WB Gamer

    the point is the kind of balancing. the effort to nerv a class  is smaller as a rebalancing all other classes with shes capabilities. i saw fights with destroyers in the pit aren't use mines and bombs (epic class attribut !!!).

    What is that. A special AI? Or it is all randomly or is it a hidden feature of nemesis system? imho bersek nerf was not neccessary. Push the other degraded trash classes at first. 

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    WB Gamer
    Nobody is blaming casual players. I am blaming an approach that looks like: every fort should be doable in a reasonable amount of time to every player no matter how casually they are approaching it. I completely disagree: if I spend literally 100s if hours curating orcs to make my assault teams better and defenses more difficult, it SHOULD be difficult to complete without risk to someone who is approaching invasions casually.

    And this is constructive engagement: they nerfed things way too much for my taste and in a way that turns things into, as dimitri described, vanilla pudding. That’s fine, just not interesting. The constructive alternative to keep me interested as a player is: revisit this and greatly lessen the nerfing. Not complicated.


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    WB Gamer
    Re draws in the pit showing balance... I politely disagree. Close fights show balance. Draws because neither side is capable of finishing off the other or even coming close shows mutual incapacity.
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    WB Gamer

    For those who feel this nerfing has negatively affected their gaming experience, contact WB Support and tell them your concerns.  .

     

    https://middle-earthgamessupport.wbgames.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

     

    I haven't done any OFPs since the new version, but I've had 2 players attack my Overlord (Lithlad) and both resulted in Draws.   

     

    The addition of 2 bodyguards in the Overlord room is an improvement regarding Sieges if things were akin to the 1.17 version, but given the weakening of most (all?) Captains with 1.19 their presence is near negligible.     It's just far too easy now, the fights much quicker as Captains fall like flies in Sieges, your Followers kill the bulk of them before you even get a chance to engage.   With no standouts, there's no reason to farm Fight Pits, recruit specific Followers, spend time setting up and testing combos, etc when the quality and stand-outs no longer exist.   Their traits are diminished, Class bonuses weakened, etc everything seems to have been brought down.    What they should have done was upped/buffed the traits on weaker classes, give them more health, strength or special abilities, etc to make them more balanced with the other stronger types.   Weakening most/all classes to bring them down to the lowest dominator is the wrong route to go.  Tallion was already very strong against the best of Captains (Nemesis anyway) and that made Sieges fairly easy against all but the most beefed Berzerker-manned Forts.    Now those beefed Berzerker manned forts are pushovers, and the more routine ones manned with a motley crews of various other Classes even much so.   Instead of making things more challenging they've made it much easier, less unique, less interesting and taken away the one big reason for continued playing once you've finished the game.  

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    WB Gamer
    Nice in depth stuff. Good post. I encourage everyone to follow dimitri's suggestion.
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    WB Gamer
    Pretty much everything Dinitri said. Nicely done.

    And just to add one thing that I think got ignored, at least in all the discussions I saw about berserkers and online siege: they were balanced in what I thought was a very cool and creative way. The whole point of the class was high damage output and regeneration commensurate with that. BUT that high damage output was just as much a danger to your own forces if you didn’t manage them right. In 300+ sieges —with two exceptions where it was an olog detroyer with anger management issues— every orc I had killed by another orc was my own captain being killed by my own berserker. On defense it was the same thing, finding a spot where they wouldn’t get enraged and kill off the other defenders wasn’t easy. It’s what made them so fun, too. Gifted problem children. They could be way more of a liability than an asset if not handled properly.

    I would have loved a response that kept the uniqueness and strengths of berseerkers but made other classes more unique in response. Kind of like the BoG patch upgrade to marksmen... loved it. Getting hit by an arrow from half way across the world and not even sure where it came from.
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    WB Gamer
    Can we all just agree that the level of damage they do now should be on easy and they get stronger each difficulty with nemesis being where it used to be? And to further go off of this, make it so we can select difficulty in online sieges because that needs to happen at some point.
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    WB Gamer

    Hey everybody - this is all really helpful feedback. FWIW, I know Design is looking at the effects of the balance tweaks and talking about revising some of the revisions, or tweaking some of the tweaks. Your choice.

     

    But seriously, I know some of the things that came out of the balancing wasn't their primary intent, and seeing your feedback is a big part of why they're revisiting some of it.

     

    So thank you and have hope that this may not all be the way things net out for the long haul.

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    WB Gamer
    Most groovy
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    WB Gamer

     wrote:

    Hey everybody - this is all really helpful feedback. FWIW, I know Design is looking at the effects of the balance tweaks and talking about revising some of the revisions, or tweaking some of the tweaks. Your choice.

     

    But seriously, I know some of the things that came out of the balancing wasn't their primary intent, and seeing your feedback is a big part of why they're revisiting some of it.

     

    So thank you and have hope that this may not all be the way things net out for the long haul.


    This is very promising news Mark in regards to Design team revisiting their patch's rebalancing tweaks.   We will wait for the July update and hope for the best.   

     

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    WB Gamer
    <3 thanks for communicating this
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    WB Gamer

    Agreed.   Berzerkers, as a whole, are a unqiue class in that respect (two edged sword), and you have to manage them very carefully.    This same thing does happen on other classes, but at a much less frequent rate (and often those other types were the victim of your Berzerker's rage).   Regardless, it involved hours upon hours of testing out combos in Fort Defense and Assault Teams to ensure your Followers don't kill each other, during combat or before when awaiting it.   Any indivudal Follower, regardless of class, can also inherit that Hysterial/Shaken Master trait when raised to Warchief and assigned BG (or Overlord now too)    All fair game though given their other benefits, and in the end after all your effort, you had a very strong, stablized Fort and Assault team that you could more or less trust to hold firm under pressure and not kill each other.    In short, the game rewarded those players who invested more time into it.  The opporutnity to find and recruit those great Captains always existed for those willing to find them, as did the different strategies involved in defeating / recruiting them.  Now that reward is gone, and Online Sieges are pushovers requiring no strategy to defeat, nothing unique exists, so what's the point of continuing playing once you've finished the game..  

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    WB Gamer

    I stated this on another thread and realized it didn't treally belong there.  Not wanting to beat a dead caragor, especially as it's been made clear that players were listened to, and I'm thankful for that.  It's greatly appreciated.  I'm hopeful for possible changes bringing things closer to what they were, but I'll also be honest as a player: if the haul is too long, at least this one player will have moved on.   No complaints, I got more than the price I paid in value if I never entered the game again.  You all have already done some things very, very right and in a way that is totally unique.  If the game started the way it is now though? I would have moved on months ago, basically when I finished the final act in my first playthrough. 

     

    But I think this basically sums up the problem from one player's perspective, gives the problem statement clearly enough that I can let it rest now and, having stated my concern as clearly as I can, see if any changes that happen make the game worth playing again beyond cleaning some things up and doing a DoM run or two:

     

    I think the basic problem is judging game and class balance by what happens in fight pits and equivalent situations.  First, the basic concept of fight pits the way they're implemented is a bit off.  For example, destroyers: they're meant to do AOE and damage to structures, take out mobs of trash, counter commander and beastmaster mobs, hopefully  catch numerous captains on fire at once or poison or curse them to help the heavy damage dealers take them out quickly etc.  Why would they be balanced in one on one combat???  That's not what they're meant for.     All else being equal, of course a slayer or berserker or tank should  domiinate in that situation, unless that slayer or berserker or tank is supceptible to whatever element the destroyer is using.    By the same token, I won't have an assault team without a destroyer, the AOE makes a big difference for me.   (And holy shrack what I wouldn't give to have destroyers focus on inner  fortress gates)

     

    The problem is that it looks like they're solving for the flaws in the logic of pit fights, which translates to infecting the  rest of the game with that same flawed logic: every class should be competitive with every other class, when performance is measured by how well they do in one on one  confrontations. 

     

    That's a flawed premise.  It's the flawed premise on which the fight pits are based, and shouldn't be made into the premise on which balance game-wide is judged and adjusted for.

     

     

    Talion's building an army, not leading a gang of gladiators.

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    WB Gamer

    All good points.  It's likely a combination of issues that led them to nerf and weaken Captains, including of course FPits.  I wouldn't be surprised if the new DoM also played a part, that they toned down the stronger classes for Barinor's sake during testing.    Perhaps the weight of their rebalancing effort was based primarily on testiing ithe changes in 1 or 2 scenarios (eg. Fight Pits/DoM) and not much time spent on the domino effect this caused in other areas of the game (e.g. Sieges).     But like you, i've got my money's worth since it's been released, and if they don't resolve the nerfing of Captains that'll be it for me.   Too bad, as this game could have continued to hold a ton of fun playability long after you've 'beat' the game, and my 1500 hrs invested is testament to that (in my still original play through).    

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    WB Gamer

    One of my favorite things in the game was finding that beserker who was from a certain tribe, had awesome armor, and had great abilities and traits. This new update messed all of that up big time. They are difficult to find and apply properly so they should be stronger than everybody else. A epic captain should not be killing a savage beserker. Please fix this!!!!! This is so frustrating.

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